Tweet
Les proto-aryens etaient ils majoritiarement de haplotype Arabide J?
C'est la these soutenue par grand nombre d'Anthroplogues et Linguistes comme Coon et Starostin.
D'abord il faut savoir que les premiers proto-aryens etaient un peuple mixte en quelque sorte et c'est tout a fait logique vu que le corridor montagneux entre le caucase et la mesopotamie(lieu d'emergence des Aryens)etait tjs une region de migrations.
Voila sur quoi se base cette these point par point:
*D'abord quelques explications: il est vrai que des langues comme le Grec,Allemand ou Persan sont classifies comme langues Aryennes,mais il ne faut pas oublier que les racines communes entre ces langues sont minoriatires aux differentes racines pre-indo-europeenes ou post-indo-europeenes de ces langues
On peut citer comme exemple la langue Allemande
*/L'anthroplogue Carleton Coon estime que le proto-indo-europeen est apparu suite a un melange linguistique entre une langue A "neolithique"(cad apparu au neolithique)afrasiatique et une langue B "paleolithique"(cad apparu au paleolithique avant la langue B)ouralique
Et ceci est confirme par la parente entre les langues Ouraliques et celles Afrasiatiques sous la super famille linguistique nostratique
Cad la prmiere langue proto-aryenne etait une sorte de creole qui incluait dans sa nomenclature au moins deux proto-langues distinctes(ouralique et afrasiatique)
Cela expliquerait peut etre que en dela de la presence de racines nostratiques communes(surtout en rapport avec l'agriculture et les animaux,fruits et organes)aux langues Aryennes et Afrasiatiques mais non a celle Ouraliques,et des racines communes presentes en langues Ouraliques et indo-europeenes mais non en Afrasiatique
Attention il s'agit de mots bases sur d'anciennes racines communes presents dans des textes millenaires et dans differentes langues aussi eloignes que l'hindi et l'iclandais,pour voir des milliers d'autres racines(et on des mots comme est le cas ici)voila un site http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/sr.html
six/sitte
septem/sab3a
buck/baqara
agro/ha9l
earth/ardh
rodos/ward
lobos/lobb
corne/qarn
taurus/thawr
ble/bur
tu/ente
he/hu
mortem/mawt
malade/maridh
visage/wajh
joue/wajn
that/dhak
tour/dawra
eye/3eyn
cat/qit
terre/turab
nous/nahnu
sound/sawt
to/7atta
soir/sahara
in/ayna
guider/yaqud
etable/tawila(en ancien arabe "tawila" veut dire "etable"(Latin Stabulun)mais c'est etrange qu'elle a evolue dans l'arabe moderne pour designer la table(Grec Tabli)alors qu'"etable" est designe par le possible emprunt "Istabl"dans l'Arabe moderne)
etc etc
**/
http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/06-01.htm
Linguistically, Indo-European is probably a relatively recent phenomenon, which arose after animals had been tamed and plants cultivated. The latest researches find it to be a derivative of an initially mixed language, whose principal elements were Uralic, called element A, and some undesignated element B which was probably one of the eastern Mediterranean or Caucasic languages.5 The plants and animals on which the economy of the early Indo-European speakers was based were referred to in words derived mainly from element B. Copper and gold were known, and the words for these commodities come from Mesopotamia.
***/Comme vous le savez les indo-europeens ou aryens sont un phenomene essentiellement linguistqiue et non racial et genetique et cei depuis leur migration initiale de leur homeland en mesopotamie en direction de contrees si eloignees que la siberie et la bretagne.
Biensur ces aryens doivent ressembler au populations actuelles vivant de la mesopotamie jusqu'au Caucase et non aux peuples qu'ils allaient aryaniser comme les peuplades de l'inde et du nord de l'europe.
A/Homeland et migration Aryenne
Etant le produit melange de populaions B de mesopotamie avec des ougriques A ,les Aryens seraient un peuple appartenant essentiellement a la race mediterranide(des types bruns surout et une minorite de types blonds mediterraneens)et la race nordide(bruns et blonds de race nordide)
B/Peu a peu les langues pre-aryennes ont dispau en laissant une trace tres visible en forme d'emprunts lexicaux et grammaticaux.
Ainsi par exemple les peuplades du nord et cetre d'europe connus plus tard sous le nom Germains ont adopte une langue Aryenne comme substrat a leur langue pre-indo-europeene par un phenomene essentiellement d'assimilation culturelle.
Voila un raisonnement que j'ai mis dans la talk page de wikipedia et j'espece que le redacteur de l'article veuille repondre a mes interrogations.
==Proto indo-europeans are majorly persons of J haplotype linked via the Nostratic languages family!??==
First of all forgive your brother for my bad english and thank you for this article.
We know that:
-R1 haplogroup are "paleolithic"haplotypes(0)
-The originel language of persons of R1 haplogroup is linked with Basque and dont has any link with indo-european languages(1)
-Semitic and indo-european languages are linked via the nostratic(2)
languages theory
-and all are languages of neolithic timed origin(3)
-The haplogroup J is very present among Indians,Persians,Greeks,Indians(4)
-The linguistic aryanisation of india for example is only a linguistic process,in fact we have aryanic speaking populations as much racially different as Sindhis and Danish(5)
.(6)
D'abord il faut savoir que les premiers proto-aryens etaient un peuple mixte en quelque sorte et c'est tout a fait logique vu que le corridor montagneux entre le caucase et la mesopotamie(lieu d'emergence des Aryens)etait tjs une region de migrations.
Voila sur quoi se base cette these point par point:
*D'abord quelques explications: il est vrai que des langues comme le Grec,Allemand ou Persan sont classifies comme langues Aryennes,mais il ne faut pas oublier que les racines communes entre ces langues sont minoriatires aux differentes racines pre-indo-europeenes ou post-indo-europeenes de ces langues
On peut citer comme exemple la langue Allemande
All Germanic languages are thought to be descended from a hypothetical Proto-Germanic, united by subjection to the sound shifts of Grimm's law and Verner's law. These probably took place during the Pre-Roman Iron Age of Northern Europe from ca. 500 BC, but other common innovations separating Germanic from Proto-Indo European suggest a common history of pre-Proto-Germanic speakers throughout the Nordic Bronze Age.
In one major[citation needed] theory of Andrev V Bell-Fialkov, Christopher Kaplonski, Wiliam B Mayer, Dean S Rugg, Rebeca W, Wendelken about Germanic origins, Indo-European speakers arrived on the plains of southern Sweden and Jutland, the center of the Urheimat or "original home" of the Germanic peoples, prior to the Nordic Bronze Age, which began about 4500 years ago. This is the only area where no pre-Germanic place names have been found.[3] The region was certainly populated before then; the lack of names must indicate an Indo-European settlement so ancient and dense that the previously assigned names were completely replaced. If archaeological horizons are at all indicative of shared language (not a straightforward assumption), the Indo-European speakers are to be identified with the much more widely ranged Cord-impressed ware or Battle-axe culture and possibly also with the preceding Funnel-necked beaker culture developing towards the end of the Neolithic culture of Western Europe.[4][5]
The Germanic substrate hypothesis is an attempt to explain the distinctive nature of the Germanic languages within the context of the Indo-European language family. It posits that the elements of the common Germanic vocabulary and syntactical forms, which do not seem to have an Indo-European origin, essentially represent a creole language: a contact language synthesis between Indo-European speakers and a non-Indo-European substrate language used by the ancestors of the speakers of the Proto-Germanic language. The theory was first proposed by Sigmund Feist in 1932, who estimated that roughly 1/3 of the Proto-Germanic lexical items came from a non-Indo-European substrate and that the supposed reduction of the Proto-Germanic inflectional system was the result of pidginization with that substrate.[1] The culture and tribes from which the hypothesized substrate material originated continues to be a subject of academic debate and study. Notable candidates for possible substrate culture(s) are the Ertebølle culture, Funnelbeaker culture, Pitted Ware culture and the Corded Ware culture.
A number of root words for modern European words seem to limit the geographical origin of these Germanic influences, such as the root word for ash (the tree) and other environmental references suggest a limited root stream subset which can be localized to northern Europe[4]
Kalevi Wiik, a phonologist, has put forward a controversial hypothesis that the pre-Germanic substrate was of Finnic origin. Wiik claimed that there are similarities between mistakes in English pronunciation typical of Finnish speakers and the historical sound changes from Proto-Indo-European to proto-Germanic.[5][6] Wiik's argument is based on the assumption that only three language groups existed in pre-Indo-European Europe, namely Finno-Ugric, Indo-European and Basque, corresponding to three ice age refugia. Then, Finno-Ugric speakers would have been the first to settle most of Europe, and the language of the Indo-European invaders was influenced by the native Finno-Ugric population, producing the Germanic protolanguage.[5][6] Wiik's theory is controversial and rejected by most other linguists.[7][8][9] So is likewise Venemann's (2003) hyposthesis of a Basque substrate and a Semitic Superstrate.
de wikipedia(Quoique il faut etre prudent quand il s'agit de wikipedia)
In one major[citation needed] theory of Andrev V Bell-Fialkov, Christopher Kaplonski, Wiliam B Mayer, Dean S Rugg, Rebeca W, Wendelken about Germanic origins, Indo-European speakers arrived on the plains of southern Sweden and Jutland, the center of the Urheimat or "original home" of the Germanic peoples, prior to the Nordic Bronze Age, which began about 4500 years ago. This is the only area where no pre-Germanic place names have been found.[3] The region was certainly populated before then; the lack of names must indicate an Indo-European settlement so ancient and dense that the previously assigned names were completely replaced. If archaeological horizons are at all indicative of shared language (not a straightforward assumption), the Indo-European speakers are to be identified with the much more widely ranged Cord-impressed ware or Battle-axe culture and possibly also with the preceding Funnel-necked beaker culture developing towards the end of the Neolithic culture of Western Europe.[4][5]
The Germanic substrate hypothesis is an attempt to explain the distinctive nature of the Germanic languages within the context of the Indo-European language family. It posits that the elements of the common Germanic vocabulary and syntactical forms, which do not seem to have an Indo-European origin, essentially represent a creole language: a contact language synthesis between Indo-European speakers and a non-Indo-European substrate language used by the ancestors of the speakers of the Proto-Germanic language. The theory was first proposed by Sigmund Feist in 1932, who estimated that roughly 1/3 of the Proto-Germanic lexical items came from a non-Indo-European substrate and that the supposed reduction of the Proto-Germanic inflectional system was the result of pidginization with that substrate.[1] The culture and tribes from which the hypothesized substrate material originated continues to be a subject of academic debate and study. Notable candidates for possible substrate culture(s) are the Ertebølle culture, Funnelbeaker culture, Pitted Ware culture and the Corded Ware culture.
A number of root words for modern European words seem to limit the geographical origin of these Germanic influences, such as the root word for ash (the tree) and other environmental references suggest a limited root stream subset which can be localized to northern Europe[4]
Kalevi Wiik, a phonologist, has put forward a controversial hypothesis that the pre-Germanic substrate was of Finnic origin. Wiik claimed that there are similarities between mistakes in English pronunciation typical of Finnish speakers and the historical sound changes from Proto-Indo-European to proto-Germanic.[5][6] Wiik's argument is based on the assumption that only three language groups existed in pre-Indo-European Europe, namely Finno-Ugric, Indo-European and Basque, corresponding to three ice age refugia. Then, Finno-Ugric speakers would have been the first to settle most of Europe, and the language of the Indo-European invaders was influenced by the native Finno-Ugric population, producing the Germanic protolanguage.[5][6] Wiik's theory is controversial and rejected by most other linguists.[7][8][9] So is likewise Venemann's (2003) hyposthesis of a Basque substrate and a Semitic Superstrate.
de wikipedia(Quoique il faut etre prudent quand il s'agit de wikipedia)
Et ceci est confirme par la parente entre les langues Ouraliques et celles Afrasiatiques sous la super famille linguistique nostratique
Cad la prmiere langue proto-aryenne etait une sorte de creole qui incluait dans sa nomenclature au moins deux proto-langues distinctes(ouralique et afrasiatique)
Cela expliquerait peut etre que en dela de la presence de racines nostratiques communes(surtout en rapport avec l'agriculture et les animaux,fruits et organes)aux langues Aryennes et Afrasiatiques mais non a celle Ouraliques,et des racines communes presentes en langues Ouraliques et indo-europeenes mais non en Afrasiatique
Attention il s'agit de mots bases sur d'anciennes racines communes presents dans des textes millenaires et dans differentes langues aussi eloignes que l'hindi et l'iclandais,pour voir des milliers d'autres racines(et on des mots comme est le cas ici)voila un site http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/sr.html
six/sitte
septem/sab3a
buck/baqara
agro/ha9l
earth/ardh
rodos/ward
lobos/lobb
corne/qarn
taurus/thawr
ble/bur
tu/ente
he/hu
mortem/mawt
malade/maridh
visage/wajh
joue/wajn
that/dhak
tour/dawra
eye/3eyn
cat/qit
terre/turab
nous/nahnu
sound/sawt
to/7atta
soir/sahara
in/ayna
guider/yaqud
etable/tawila(en ancien arabe "tawila" veut dire "etable"(Latin Stabulun)mais c'est etrange qu'elle a evolue dans l'arabe moderne pour designer la table(Grec Tabli)alors qu'"etable" est designe par le possible emprunt "Istabl"dans l'Arabe moderne)
etc etc
**/
http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/06-01.htm
Linguistically, Indo-European is probably a relatively recent phenomenon, which arose after animals had been tamed and plants cultivated. The latest researches find it to be a derivative of an initially mixed language, whose principal elements were Uralic, called element A, and some undesignated element B which was probably one of the eastern Mediterranean or Caucasic languages.5 The plants and animals on which the economy of the early Indo-European speakers was based were referred to in words derived mainly from element B. Copper and gold were known, and the words for these commodities come from Mesopotamia.
Biensur ces aryens doivent ressembler au populations actuelles vivant de la mesopotamie jusqu'au Caucase et non aux peuples qu'ils allaient aryaniser comme les peuplades de l'inde et du nord de l'europe.
A/Homeland et migration Aryenne
Etant le produit melange de populaions B de mesopotamie avec des ougriques A ,les Aryens seraient un peuple appartenant essentiellement a la race mediterranide(des types bruns surout et une minorite de types blonds mediterraneens)et la race nordide(bruns et blonds de race nordide)
B/Peu a peu les langues pre-aryennes ont dispau en laissant une trace tres visible en forme d'emprunts lexicaux et grammaticaux.
Ainsi par exemple les peuplades du nord et cetre d'europe connus plus tard sous le nom Germains ont adopte une langue Aryenne comme substrat a leur langue pre-indo-europeene par un phenomene essentiellement d'assimilation culturelle.
Voila un raisonnement que j'ai mis dans la talk page de wikipedia et j'espece que le redacteur de l'article veuille repondre a mes interrogations.
==Proto indo-europeans are majorly persons of J haplotype linked via the Nostratic languages family!??==
First of all forgive your brother for my bad english and thank you for this article.
We know that:
-R1 haplogroup are "paleolithic"haplotypes(0)
-The originel language of persons of R1 haplogroup is linked with Basque and dont has any link with indo-european languages(1)
-Semitic and indo-european languages are linked via the nostratic(2)
languages theory
-and all are languages of neolithic timed origin(3)
-The haplogroup J is very present among Indians,Persians,Greeks,Indians(4)
-The linguistic aryanisation of india for example is only a linguistic process,in fact we have aryanic speaking populations as much racially different as Sindhis and Danish(5)
Carleton Coon says:
Linguistically, Indo-European is probably a relatively recent phenomenon, which arose after animals had been tamed and plants cultivated. The latest researches find it to be a derivative of an initially mixed language, whose principal elements were Uralic, called element A, and some undesignated element B which was probably one of the eastern Mediterranean or Caucasic languages.5 The plants and animals on which the economy of the early Indo-European speakers was based were referred to in words derived mainly from element B. Copper and gold were known, and the words for these commodities come from Mesopotamia
Linguistically, Indo-European is probably a relatively recent phenomenon, which arose after animals had been tamed and plants cultivated. The latest researches find it to be a derivative of an initially mixed language, whose principal elements were Uralic, called element A, and some undesignated element B which was probably one of the eastern Mediterranean or Caucasic languages.5 The plants and animals on which the economy of the early Indo-European speakers was based were referred to in words derived mainly from element B. Copper and gold were known, and the words for these commodities come from Mesopotamia
.jpg)
Commentaire